Linode Forum
Linode Community Forums
 FAQFAQ    SearchSearch    MembersMembers      Register Register 
 LoginLogin [ Anonymous ] 
Post new topic  This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.
Author Message
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 2:01 am 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Sun May 23, 2010 1:57 pm
Posts: 315
Website: http://www.jebblue.net
From their site: "cloud servers start at less than 1 cent per hour"

A) That's how I pay for my utilities. I don't like it now. I have never liked it. I like flat rate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flat_rate

B) I like the people at Linode.

C) I like real disks. Not saying SSD is flaky, SSD's are still new, this too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... isk_drives


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:30 am 
Offline
Senior Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:32 am
Posts: 10
AOL: takumisai
Guspaz wrote:
Linode might be a bit behind the curve in terms of passing on savings through dropping costs, but DigitalOcean is selling services at "scam warning bell" pricepoints. It's impossible to sell and deliver unmetered gigabit connections for $5 and not take huge losses. Either performance must be degraded (best-effort type scenario) or the price must be raised.

It's not clear what exactly they're promising. They say "All servers come with 1Gb/sec. network interface." Does that mean every cloud server, or every physical host? If it's every cloud server, how do they fit that many gigabit interfaces into a single physical host? If it's every physical host, then how do they make any kind of guarantee about performance?

They're selling these things as SSD-based. I've never seen SSD pricing, individually or in bulk, go much below $0.50 per gigabyte (and enterprise-grade is often much higher), so at $5/mth, it would take them two months just to cover the cost of storage, let alone the cost of bandwidth or the servers themselves...

Their benchmarks from what I've seen are already very low-end, and bandwidth performance is already rather lackluster. I'd much rather be on a platform like Linode that promises me a reliable amount of performance in a fixed quantity (like my 200GB of bandwidth) rather than a platform like DigitalOcean that says "free bandwidth" but doesn't really say if I'll get 1 megabit or 1000 megabits per second.


They really do need to tighten their sales copy but I'm pretty sure they mean a gigabit interface per physical server. You seem to know quite a bit about what things cost in this industry, would you be able to roughly estimate their cost for a single 512/20GB, assuming they are leasing their hardware in bulk at a good price? I have no idea what sort of markup is typical in this industry but given the competition I would guess it's very low which is what really sets off my warning bells. Anyway, I got $20 free voucher with the code ""SSDBEAR20" which was published on hackernews and I'm setting up a bunch of TOR exit nodes to see how they cope.


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:18 am 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 7:47 pm
Posts: 1970
Website: http://www.rwky.net
Location: Earth
Try them for 6 months and see if you have any problems. I did and I had problems.

I had a server up there for a couple of weeks running as an online backup clone of one that I have at Linode, they suspended my account and deleted the server saying it had been compromised.
When I asked them for details and to restore it they did restore it (took a while) but couldn't explain about the server being compromised. In the end they said it was using too many resources and because my account was fairly new they thought I was a spammer.

They credited me $10 for my trouble, not something I actually care about I'd rather they'd emailed me warning me about the server before deleting it, shortly after this incident I deleted all my images from there and I'll use someone else for online backup clones. Luckily I didn't have anything critical there.

With any new hosting company try them out for a while before you think about using them. I've not found anyone that has support and services as good as Linode which is why I'm happy to pay what I pay for what I get.

_________________
Paid support
How to ask for help
1. Give details of your problem
2. Post any errors
3. Post relevant logs.
4. Don't hide details i.e. your domain, it just makes things harder
5. Be polite or you'll be eaten by a grue


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:34 am 
Offline
Junior Member

Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2012 6:17 am
Posts: 42
Website: https://www.serverfruit.com/
Location: Denmark
You get what you pay for, and honestly, I'm happy to pay Linode their $20 a month for a stable service. That much it isn't when you think about it.

_________________
lakridserne
Serverfruit - shared and managed VPS hosting, SSL certificates and domains
Awesome servers rented from Linode!


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 6:51 am 
Offline
Senior Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 5:32 am
Posts: 10
AOL: takumisai
obs wrote:
I had a server up there for a couple of weeks running as an online backup clone of one that I have at Linode, they suspended my account and deleted the server saying it had been compromised.


Thanks, that's all I need to hear to stick with Linode :D


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:26 am 
Offline
Senior Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:49 pm
Posts: 11
I opened an account with them to see what was what. I asked a few questions, and got prompt responses.
A few interesting things came out:
    There is no private network. This is still being beta-tested. For anyone with multiple instances that communicate with each other, this is a no-no. I have no idea if the private network will be secure like that at Linode or just another open LAN.
    They are not willing to give any form of guarantee regarding speed, be it on network, processor or disk. They say their guarantee is that the better their service, the better their business. Well, that's all fine and dandy unless their target market is start-ups that don't really care about performance yet. Then it matters a lot. I told them my concern was a "droplet" that slowed over time as more resources were used with a growing customer base. Their response was a $10 credit to the account so that I could test it for longer. Thanks, but I'm thinking more of a year or two from now when presumably their numbers are a lot higher.
    They are obsessed about obtaining my credit-card. You have this trial-period of a number of hours and if not given, the account is suspended. To re-activate it you need to enter your credit-card or make a pay-pal payment. Very pushy. That prompts me to take a step back.

I have not tested their system because, bottom-line, I don't like the smell of it.


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:32 am 
Offline
Junior Member
User avatar

Joined: Fri May 04, 2012 8:57 pm
Posts: 49
nickdan wrote:
I have not tested their system because, bottom-line, I don't like the smell of it.


"fishy"

heuahuuheuhuehuhueu

_________________
me | voltaireMC


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:34 am 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 3:29 pm
Posts: 1691
Location: Montreal, QC
Benio wrote:
They really do need to tighten their sales copy but I'm pretty sure they mean a gigabit interface per physical server. You seem to know quite a bit about what things cost in this industry, would you be able to roughly estimate their cost for a single 512/20GB, assuming they are leasing their hardware in bulk at a good price? I have no idea what sort of markup is typical in this industry but given the competition I would guess it's very low which is what really sets off my warning bells. Anyway, I got $20 free voucher with the code ""SSDBEAR20" which was published on hackernews and I'm setting up a bunch of TOR exit nodes to see how they cope.


More like I've just bought my fair share of SSDs and know they're not cheap. For enterprise drives, I'd expect to pay at least $2/GB. I'm seeing Intel's DC S3700 (which is probably the best enterprise SSD on the market before you start going to stuff like FusionIO) for $2.65/GB.

I've seen consumer drives like the Intel 330 go down, when on sale with a mail in rebate, as low as $0.50 per gig.

No idea how bulk pricing would affect any of this.


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 4:49 pm 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:00 pm
Posts: 87
Website: http://hemonc.org/wiki/Main_Page
Benio wrote:
What makes Linode so much better that they are worth 4x the amount?
What made me come in the first place: a track record of reliability and quality, with promised resources delivered.

_________________
Amateur, eager to learn.
My hematology, oncology, and chemotherapy regimen wiki


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:23 pm 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2007 8:23 pm
Posts: 76
My ISP throttles my torrent usage and I haven't wanted to burn through my Linode traffic with SSH tunneling. For $5/mo I can have a VPS to jack around on and to suck up all kinds of bandwidth on. I'll sign up tonight and see if they shut me down after a while. I'll post back if it happens.


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 5:37 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Tue May 26, 2009 3:29 pm
Posts: 1691
Location: Montreal, QC
nickdan wrote:
There is no private network. This is still being beta-tested. For anyone with multiple instances that communicate with each other, this is a no-no. I have no idea if the private network will be secure like that at Linode or just another open LAN.


To be fair, the only purpose of a private network is to avoid getting charged for internal bandwidth; if there is no bandwidth charges, a private network is pointless. You shouldn't be trusting a private network to be secure anyhow, you should be using a VPN.

FYI, Linode's private network is just another open LAN; you'll get broadcast packets from other peoples' linodes.


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 10:45 pm 
Offline
Senior Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:49 pm
Posts: 11
Guspaz wrote:
nickdan wrote:
There is no private network. This is still being beta-tested. For anyone with multiple instances that communicate with each other, this is a no-no. I have no idea if the private network will be secure like that at Linode or just another open LAN.


To be fair, the only purpose of a private network is to avoid getting charged for internal bandwidth; if there is no bandwidth charges, a private network is pointless. You shouldn't be trusting a private network to be secure anyhow, you should be using a VPN.

FYI, Linode's private network is just another open LAN; you'll get broadcast packets from other peoples' linodes.

That's not my understanding of the matter. See the post by Caker in this thread: http://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?p=39528. I also confirmed this with Linode Support. I'll be very disappointed to learn it is not the case.


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:02 pm 
Offline
Senior Member

Joined: Wed May 13, 2009 1:18 am
Posts: 681
nickdan wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
To be fair, the only purpose of a private network is to avoid getting charged for internal bandwidth; if there is no bandwidth charges, a private network is pointless. You shouldn't be trusting a private network to be secure anyhow, you should be using a VPN.

FYI, Linode's private network is just another open LAN; you'll get broadcast packets from other peoples' linodes.

That's not my understanding of the matter. See the post by Caker in this thread: http://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?p=39528. I also confirmed this with Linode Support. I'll be very disappointed to learn it is not the case.

Guspaz was talking about broadcast traffic, while I'm pretty sure Caker's comments in that thread are in regards to unicast traffic.

Think of the private network as a big LAN switch. While your Linode's private interface will only receive unicast traffic directed at it, everyone sees broadcast traffic. There are ingress controls so no-one can spoof your private address (but I'd expect that on the public interface too), but anyone who generates unicast traffic at your Linode can reach it. I'm not sure what other sort of configuration you'd expect to make sense. Unless you're expecting Linode to define and maintain individual VLANs at layer 2 for all customers, but I'd expect that to be unreasonable (and unnecessary) in terms of scale and maintenance.

In terms of security, treat it just like the public interface, and filter to just those private addresses that you know belong to your Linodes. No differently than your public interface, or IPv6 traffic (which has no "private" network).

-- David


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:13 pm 
Offline
Senior Newbie
User avatar

Joined: Wed Feb 29, 2012 7:49 pm
Posts: 11
db3l wrote:
nickdan wrote:
Guspaz wrote:
To be fair, the only purpose of a private network is to avoid getting charged for internal bandwidth; if there is no bandwidth charges, a private network is pointless. You shouldn't be trusting a private network to be secure anyhow, you should be using a VPN.

FYI, Linode's private network is just another open LAN; you'll get broadcast packets from other peoples' linodes.

That's not my understanding of the matter. See the post by Caker in this thread: http://forum.linode.com/viewtopic.php?p=39528. I also confirmed this with Linode Support. I'll be very disappointed to learn it is not the case.

Guspaz was talking about broadcast traffic, while I'm pretty sure Caker's comments in that thread are in regards to unicast traffic.

Think of the private network as a big LAN switch. While your Linode's private interface will only receive unicast traffic directed at it, everyone sees broadcast traffic. There are ingress controls so no-one can spoof your private address (but I'd expect that on the public interface too), but anyone who generates unicast traffic at your Linode can reach it. I'm not sure what other sort of configuration you'd expect to make sense. Unless you're expecting Linode to define and maintain individual VLANs at layer 2 for all customers, but I'd expect that to be unreasonable (and unnecessary) in terms of scale and maintenance.

In terms of security, treat it just like the public interface, and filter to just those private addresses that you know belong to your Linodes. No differently than your public interface, or IPv6 traffic (which has no "private" network).

-- David

Thanks for taking the time to explain, David. I had the wrong idea of things.


Top
   
 
PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2013 11:15 pm 
Offline
Senior Member
User avatar

Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 11:12 pm
Posts: 1038
Location: Colorado, USA
It would be interesting to know if Digital Ocean would allow this thread on their discussion forum.

Linode gets knocked around for lack of transparency (which I don't find to be the case) but there are few vendors that allow open discourse about their competitors on their own company forum.

_________________
Either provide enough details for people to help, or sit back and listen to the crickets chirp.
Security thru obscurity is a myth - and really really annoying.


Top
   
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic  This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: SpinThis! and 3 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
RSS

Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group